Rick: [00:00:00] Hey, welcome to the Healthcare Nation Podcast, your host Rick Gido, with our producer Joe Woolworth. Joe, how are you doing, my friend? I'm doing great today. Doing great. Listen, I wanna just say to the audience, we've had a lot of feedback on our lack of engagement [00:00:15] on the Biden Trump debate specifically talking about the cognitive, issues that were called into question. I just wanna tell our viewers and our audience that are listening on the podcast platforms that we're gonna do a whole show [00:00:30] dedicated to that. And that's coming up, right Joe? I think our next show. Yeah. So, so stay tuned for that. But today we've got a great show you know, and for those of you who are, are frequent listeners and subscribers, and we appreciate that, you know, that we get into the market sometimes [00:00:45] specifically with trends and innovations in the health sector.

There. And one of the areas that have been on our radar for a while has been the cannabis industry, the gummy industry, what's happening with respect to regulation, research and development. And, and just the overall, I think, [00:01:00] state's rules and regs along those lines. And as Joe and I kicked this around, we said, let's do a show dedicated to one of the leading, I think areas of growth, which is the gummy industry and have a CEO in that space.

So Joe, you [00:01:15] wanna add anything to that as we.

Joe Woolworth: Yeah, I think I do have an interesting story I think to add for me, this is a funny story actually happened, and this might be like a lot of people's stories. You go into like a vape store somewhere and you're not [00:01:30] familiar with the whole industry and it's like wall to wall, like bongs and stuff I don't understand about whatever.

And I'm like, oh, I've heard gummies are nice. You know, 'cause it's, it's coming up all the time and podcast and whatever. And I went in to go get one, had no idea what I was doing. Got terrible advice. And then [00:01:45] leaving some guy in a minivan. Pulled up behind me and asked to sell me real weed. And I was thinking to myself, I'm a grownup.

I don't want your windowless van. Real weed. Yes. No, you do want that. I have no idea what's in it. And I think that that's the, that's the conversation is people, [00:02:00] what's a mature view or a grownup way that you care what you put in your body that's not just about like, you know, the $3 thing at the gas station that's called like.

To the moon or something, you know? Right.

Rick: Which is, which is very dangerous, obviously, [00:02:15] physiologically you know, mental issues that can come out of a bad experience. I mean, there's lots of negatives on that. Mm-Hmm. That's why I do think, again, the anyone who's on the leading edge from a regulatory perspective on a research and [00:02:30] development on what goes into the constituent parts, that gets my attention.

The other side, and we know this. When you're talking a, a market cap of $8 billion by 2030, there's something that's out there that's happening. When you tie that to novel [00:02:45] ideas, the impact factor overall makes for something that we needed to talk about. So along those lines, and sticking with the health and wellness theme, we know that gummies are increasingly being formulated differently.

We know legalization [00:03:00] regulations changing across the 50 states. There's consumer preferences. So all that said, we have Martin Andelman, the CEO of Trem, who's gonna be on the show. And TREM is, is what I would say, probably the leading gummy producer [00:03:15] in this space. When you think about Delta nine, Delta eight, the THC side, he has a novel approach leveraging research development, his own double blind studies that he did.

Looking at the legal and regulatory issues, the [00:03:30] impact factor, and really positioning his product in the market so that it is certainly a positive ad versus a negative from a market uptake, and he's doing in a way that is sensible, working within the bounds so that he [00:03:45] protects people. One of the things.

Specifically Joe is that Martin insisted that on their website you gotta go through age verification for 21. So I thought that was really laudable and I commend them for that.

Joe Woolworth: I also thought it was interesting during the interview the idea that [00:04:00] the idea of building brand loyalty, he brought up, and I hadn't thought about it, like if you go and you buy a gummy and you just go the next time, you don't care which one you bought, and there's a lot that goes into.

Brand loyalty. Like you've got to, you've gotta know what you're talking about. You've gotta [00:04:15] trust the brand. And I think that that's a really interesting approach for trying to capture a market where brand loyalty wasn't a thing before because people, honestly, it's, there's a lot of garbage out there.

Yeah,

Rick: yeah. And, and his [00:04:30] creation of brand loyalty through you know, social media and this relationship that he's having with his. Customers, I think, which is also very unique.

Joe Woolworth: Yeah.

Rick: So with that, let's invite Martin Edelman on the show [00:04:45] Martin, so great to have you on [00:05:00] the show. Joe, our producer and I have been talking about.

You know, innovations, market trends and everything associated with what's happening in the cannabis and gummy industry really checks the, the mark on that. So, [00:05:15] delighted to have you, my friend. Let me just jump right in. You're the CEO of tria. I, I would say a leading I'm gummy producer in the United States with ha with, I think with respect to quality control and research [00:05:30] and development, probably on the leading edge there.

Before we get into questions, tell us about yourself, Martin, a little bit about your background and how you got to Trem.

Martin: How did I, how did I start? We start making gummies. Just start. Well, my background really, I mean, I'm, I'm kind of an old guy now. [00:05:45] I'm 63 years old, so my background's a long thing. But I started out in healthcare consulting and I was a writer and a strategist.

Similar to some of the things that, that you've done. We've worked with some of the same people, I'm sure over the years. And after healthcare, you [00:06:00] know, I kind of. So, or my, I owned a consulting firm and then I was with JP Morgan for a number of years, and we switched sort of from healthcare to finance, insurance side of things.

And so I've really, my, my whole career has been spent making [00:06:15] complicated subjects easier for people to understand, and then people say I'm funny. I don't know. You know, try to make it interesting and entertaining. So that's kind of where I've spent my whole career. Now when it came to cannabis, that's, that wasn't a really part [00:06:30] of a career thing.

But I lived in California and so California legalized cannabis first for medical, I think back in about 2012, and then recreationally in 2016. And, you know, to be honest, I [00:06:45] wasn't sure I was even, I, I, looking back, it's funny to think, but I, I wasn't a hundred percent sure they should legalize it. I was like a little bit concerned.

I was thinking, you know, you're gonna legalize it. All of a sudden there's gonna be billboards on the 4 0 5 freeway for marijuana or something [00:07:00] and you know, you have, you know, is that really a good thing? I wasn't sure how it would go. I didn't know if, you know, if you legalize it. People said, well, if you legalize it, more people will do it.

And I thought, is that really true? I mean. It didn't seem like it at the time because I have never [00:07:15] met anyone in my entire life that said, you know, I'd like to, I'd like to smoke cannabis, but it's illegal so I don't. Ever. I've never met anybody like, so I thought, you know, how much growth really will there be there?

Well, now we've gotten to see, [00:07:30] right? We have 37 states where cannabis is basically legal. 22 of those completely legal recreationally and more every day. And now finally, you know, the federal government is changing, excuse me, their stance. [00:07:45] So obviously it's time has come.

Rick: Yeah, I was looking and we mentioned it in the, in the intro where there it's about an $8 billion projected market cap by 2033.

Martin: Yeah.

Rick: So [00:08:00] clearly a space where there's a lot of movement, a lot of opportunity across the board, there's no doubt. And, and your background, by the way, in healthcare, which I can obviously relate to, but also the health and wellness side, and your experience at JP [00:08:15] Morgan with risk. It kind of all goes together to probably get you where you are right now.

And along those lines, let's talk about the innovative component to this, because I think you've, you've taken attack that's a little different from others in the, the industry, no [00:08:30] question. So tell us, unpack that a little bit for us, Martin.

Martin: First of all, I think what Derem is doing is the future of gummies.

It's not just Delta. I mean, I think this is where it's going. What happened here was in 2018. We had a bill pass called the [00:08:45] Farm Bill of 2018 and it was backed by Mitch McConnell of all things. And it passed and I ignored it because it didn't sound like anything I would be interested in. I mean, the farm bill, right?

Mm-Hmm. Well, it made [00:09:00] hemp legal and I ignored that too because I always was taught that hemp you made rope out of, and it's

Rick: different than

Martin: cannabis was something you smoked and it had THC in it, but hemp didn't or whatever. I don't know. I ignored it again, but [00:09:15] what happened there was very important. It made it legal for science to research the plant.

I didn't know it was illegal to research a plant. I mean, I would've thought, if you would've asked me, you know, is it legal to research heroin at a research facility? I would've [00:09:30] said, yeah, I would think so, but it's not right. These things are class one drugs, controlled substances, and you, you can't research them.

So when they passed the bill, it gave a definition. I. For hemp. It said if it, if the, if cannabis [00:09:45] has less than 0.3% THC by dry weight, if it has less than that, then it's legal in 50 states and that

Rick: This is a really important point, folks. Were not. Exploring the [00:10:00] opportunities to, whether it's on the commercialization side or the scientific side, because of the legalities associated in the restrictions associated with the research side.

Martin: Right. Until

Rick: the

Martin: farm bill. Until the farm bill and then immediately researchers around the country [00:10:15] started taking apart the plant and they discovered, I think it's about 109 or 110 different cannabinoids. Inside that plant that naturally occur in the plant. Now, the only one we were ever familiar with was THC.

That's all we [00:10:30] knew, right? THC is the short version of the word. It's really Delta nine, THC, Tetra hydro cannabinol. That's the only thing we we ever knew about. Now we find out, well, there's actually 110 different cannabinoids in that plant. [00:10:45] There's C, b, d, we, we've heard of that now, C, BG there's HHC, there's THCV, there's CBN, there's a number of different, and then there's things like THCO and THCP, which are very [00:11:00] strong and will soon I think be illegal.

But there point is there are a number of different cannabinoids. And by blending them differently, by, by creating blends, it cre it. It's what science has called the entourage effect. So [00:11:15] if I put a little bit of Delta nine, a little bit of Delta eight with a little bit of CBN and a little bit of lemon, like if I blend these cannabinoids together, I can get a very specific targeted effect.

So [00:11:30] we, as we started to build this company and, and look Delta, we took two years at Deum to, with everything we've done here, to really make sure it was right. And so we've created products with a purpose. It's not just [00:11:45] about, oh, I want THC 'cause I want to get high. Like that's really kind of a limited way of looking at this.

Right? Yeah.

Rick: And I wanna get into the precision part of it because that's really important. But getting back, when you think about the CBD side and [00:12:00] just from a medicinal wellness side, that that space has blown up. Oh yeah. Right. Just from a I, I would say a, a. An application for arthritic conditions, joint pain, et cetera.

[00:12:15] Tremendous, I think uptake in the market, but also some positives in the research literature as well. But let me stay on that 'cause I want to get back to the quality and safety standards, but really goes into. The development of all this. There's a [00:12:30] lot of gummies that are out there. Folks have, I think, stories about someone they knew.

They took too much, they took too little, it did nothing, whatever. What are they using it for? Tell us about your process at Deum, what you're doing on the [00:12:45] quality and safety side specifically.

Martin: Yeah,

Rick: and I wanna get a little bit granular on this because you also said you blend and I think that. Opportunity also creates a, a level of fidelity that, that the [00:13:00] usual gummy company is not going to deploy.

Martin: That's right. And not nearly enough do, and I think more will all the time. Mm-Hmm. But not nearly enough to yet. I mean, the reality is, and I wanna be careful about this, we, we've talked about healthcare and medical, there's like medical claims, [00:13:15] you know? Right. And I wanna be very careful about this, but I brought an article that I just wanted to just throw out there.

The headline to this was a couple days ago, and it said, older patients using medical cannabis experience, considerable improvement in health and [00:13:30] wellbeing, federal study fines. Now, is that enough for doctors? No, probably not. Doctors are gonna go, well, I'm gonna need another study. I'm gonna need this and I'm gonna check that and we're gonna me, I get it.

But for the rest of us, and I mean maybe 70, [00:13:45] 80% of the people in the country, I mean for everybody else. I'm not gonna make a medical claim. For instance, we have a blend called Dream right? It is engineered and designed just to put you to sleep gently, keep you asleep through the night and wake up without [00:14:00] any grogginess.

That's what it does. Okay? That's it. That's the only reason to buy that. You

Rick: would not take this in the morning No. Before a board meeting.

Martin: Exactly. And we have another blend, energized. And you know, I had told somebody once, don't take it at dinner time, which he [00:14:15] promptly took it at dinner time and, and he was up till 4:00 AM now, he said on the positive slide, he finished a week's worth of work in one night.

So, but there's a, a blend of cannabinoids that actually. It gives you an incredible amount of energy for four or five hours without caffeine, without [00:14:30] any of that jittery feeling, right? So depending on how you blend those cannabinoids, you can get a very specific targeted effect. Now, I would tell you that sleeping through the night.

Sleeping better makes you [00:14:45] healthier? Is, is that a medical claim? Is the FDA coming after me? I, you know, I think it's a common sense thing, right? Like people know you know, there are people that like to have a glass of wine in the evening, right? And they'll say, it, it why? It relaxes [00:15:00] me and I feel better because of that.

Now I don't know, is there a medical study saying exactly that this is contributing to that? I don't know. But I know having a glass of wine relaxes me. Right. So, and I, and I think that improves overall wellbeing

Rick: and Sure, I'm [00:15:15] with you a hundred percent. And we've, we say it so often. This is, we're not making claims here.

We're really, you know, looking at the discovery process and, and seeking to understand a lot. And in, in that sense, what's really interesting to me is you've taken apart the [00:15:30] constituent. Components and reconfigured them with, with other, you know additives to make these blended effects. So what, what got you to that point?

Yes. What, what, what, why did you do that, number one. And how did you [00:15:45] know which com you know, constituent components. Of the Delta 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, we're the ones that were gonna work

Martin: Well, yeah. I mean, we brought together a, a group of experts, right? We got input from a lot of different [00:16:00] biochemistry side of things.

There are people that are expert in, in cannabis blending and in distilling the cannabis and in creating the, and there's a lot of interim steps, right? So we literally started, we wanted to [00:16:15] build what we built. We really built for us. Right. We were kind of building it for us. So as we were looking at all the different blends and we were making samples of different ones and we were giving them to people to try, and we were getting input back and we were going back and forth and looking at everything as, as that process went [00:16:30] on, neither my partner nor I ever asked anybody that we were talking to on the phone how much something would cost.

Now. I know that sounds crazy.

Rick: Yeah, I'm tha Well, we're gonna get to the [00:16:45] market cap questions at the end, but

Martin: keep, I know it sounds crazy, but it's what happened now. Well, Martin, why didn't you ask how, you know, someone said, well, we should add THCV, and I went, why and what? And said, yes. I didn't go. Well, how much will that be?

Mm-Hmm. [00:17:00] It's not because I don't care about what anything costs. It's simply that I don't know. In my mind, I was building a gummy. How much could it be? I just didn't think of it in those terms. Right? At the end of the day, I'm building a gummy. How I'm not buying a Ferrari? How much could this cost? [00:17:15] When we got it all done and we took it out to the market, I got a call one evening they, somebody said, Martin.

Your joyful blend is probably the most expensive gummy ever made. Why did you do that? I [00:17:30] mean, it's got like seven or eight ingredients. If you go to the any store where you are, you'll see, you know, you'll see some gummies. Maybe there'll be two ingredients. Maybe one has three, nobody has 4, 5, 6, 7. Why would you put all that in a gummy?

Well, [00:17:45] it's a mood of elevator and joyful is amazing. I mean, joyful is something that you could take in the morning and have just a great day. I mean, energize, you can take in the morning and still do math.

Joe Woolworth: Mm-Hmm.

Martin: I mean, when, that's why I say products with a purpose. We went about [00:18:00] this differently. It's not just about, oh, I wanna get high and so I'm going to take THC.

That's what we grew up with. That was really a rudimentary understanding of this. And,

Rick: and that's what's so fascinating here is, is the precision. We, we talk a lot about precision [00:18:15] medicine, obviously on the show, and what a difference that's made in therapeutics. But when you look at this segment in the wellness, health, and wellness area, I mean, was this something, was this an incidental finding that you did some [00:18:30] external.

Or did you design

Martin: for it specifically? No, we designed specifically for it. We, we started in a place and we said, look, what are the most common things that people are looking for? People need help with sleep. I [00:18:45] mean, anybody my age knows this. If you're listening to this podcast and you're over 50, I mean, you don't sleep as well.

Mm-Hmm. Or you travel and have you ever flown to Asia? And you know what happens when you go to the doctor? You go, I've got a 17 hour flight. First thing well try Ambien. [00:19:00] Mm-Hmm.

Rick: Have you ever taken an Ambien? Yeah. Well, I'll tell you, there's I, I'm not a big fan of Ambien.

Martin: Yeah. It's a headache in a bottle.

I mean, it's a guaranteed headache. If you take Ambien on your flight over there, you need two days before your first meeting. It's just awful. Well, [00:19:15] then you go back to the doctor on the next trip. Should I try? I'll melatonin, I'll try. You know melatonin? Mm-Hmm. And then I'll try Xanax and then they'll gimme a Valium and then, you know, whatever.

I mean, my wife's dentist, my wife hates gonna the dentist, my wife's dentist gives her two blue Valium. [00:19:30] To go to the dentist. I mean, these things are narcotics, they're opioids, there's, I don't wanna take that. Right. Right. I mean, you know, people talk about, so that's just sleep. I mean, anybody who's had pain or chronic pain.

Knows that, you know, [00:19:45] Vicodin sucks. It's a horrible

Rick: drug. No, no, I'm with you on that. And, and look, we've said it here before, I've, I've always believed the least medicine is the best medicine. And in that sense, when I think about the category here and, and where you're at, it [00:20:00] really is so intriguing. But staying on, on the, on the personalized, kind of the intentional directions.

What made you think of, I'm going to go for the sleep market, although that's probably obvious with Dream. I'm going to look for something that's [00:20:15] energetic. I'm gonna look for something that's more an uplifting, like your joyful product. Was it, did you just categorize it and I'm just interested in Yeah.

We, in product category fit, and then the commercialization side, we did

Martin: a lot of research and [00:20:30] including AI and including all the Google searching and including all the personal interviews to find out, you know, we, we targeted the top six demand, you know, people, what people were looking for. Mm-Hmm. And said, now can we create a blend of cannabinoids that gives you [00:20:45] that exact.

Feeling. I mean, one of my pet peeves is you'll go into a store, you'll see some gummies, and they'll have 25 milligrams of Delta eight or something in them, and they'll say they're sleep gummies, and then they'll have one and they'll be like, sex gummies. What's in them? 25 milligrams of [00:21:00] Delta eight

Joe Woolworth: mm-Hmm.

Martin: It's the same thing, right? I mean, when I talk to people, by the way, about dium on the phone, I literally have to say to someone, by the way, when I say we have six blends, no two have the same ingredients. It seemed silly to me, and we do, I have to really point that out. Why would we have six blends if [00:21:15] they all the same ingredients, but people Do they just put a new label on it or something?

The point is, it's not, there are different types of highs. Right. People, you know, we all understand that. Right. If you're even looking for a high, right. Well, well, coffee is a high Yes. Right? We don't [00:21:30] think of it as, I'm gonna go get high. I'm taking a, I'm getting a cup of coffee. Right. But it is a type of high, right?

We know this about alcohol. Think about it with alcohol. We know about alcohol 'cause we've made mistakes with it in the past. Mm-hmm. So we know it's different. If we're gonna have a [00:21:45] glass of wine that's different than a martini, it's different than a shot of tequila. It's different than a beer. Right. And we don't always look for the strongest alcohol.

We don't walk into a bar and go, what's the strongest alcohol you got? And they go, Bacardi 1 51. We go, okay. That's all I want. Nobody [00:22:00] does that. But when it comes to cannabis, I was with my wife, we were in California this a couple years ago. I took her to a dispensary and you know, she's not a cannabis person, so she was standing at the counter and she said, do you have anything not strong?

I. [00:22:15] And I thought to myself, said, no one ever. What, what do you have? Anything not strong? And the guy behind the counter pulls out a, a, a vape pen that's 50 50, 50% CBD, and 50% delta nine. And he goes, oh yeah, here. That's not strong. And I [00:22:30] said why do they even make those? Like I've never, have you ever heard anybody say, I like this.

Do you have any, weed? That's worse? Nobody ever said that. As I was growing up, everybody was taught, oh, I want the best weed. I, you know, oh, I, my friend has killer weed. [00:22:45] Whatever the reality was back then, pot wasn't very good. Yeah. It, a lot of it was crap.

So you wanted the best today That's very different now. This is today. True. I

Rick: would, I would say this is a different product [00:23:00] category for lack of a better way to, to position it. So tell me, I'm gonna couch this under the educational side. How do you educate your potential buyer, your consumers who are out there about the, you [00:23:15] know, the differentiation of your product versus the run of the mill?

Because you've, you've clearly, as you said, you've got several different products. They have different intents. They're more expensive. How do you. How do [00:23:30] you get the word out there? What's, what has been the go to market with respect to educating the consumer?

Martin: Yeah, I mean, we do a lot of online, you know, obviously videos and things and podcasts and so forth.

You know, we do talks and with retailers, a lot of [00:23:45] training with retailers, a lot of materials and you know, things that, that we're constantly educating on. I mean. We actually have, you know, every, you know, we actually have a glossary on our site. It's amazing. Like most people don't even have this, but we spend a lot of time on the glossary.

We spend a lot of time with [00:24:00] people. 'cause once you understand what you're taking, then you're, you're never gonna take, you know, gummies that you don't know what is inside them. You don't know. I mean, one of the examples about us is that we [00:24:15] built these blends. Tested them with people all along the way, and then literally decided we would double blind lab test them, which I think made some of our partners nervous.

You know, I went, look, I'm gonna take a random sample of a hundred thousand gummies. I'm going [00:24:30] to divide it in half, and I'm gonna send half to one lab and then half to another. And those two don't know about each other. So if they don't match, we wouldn't offer the product. But nobody does that. Yeah. And so a lot of the COAs, a lot of the [00:24:45] analysis.

Isn't good. Some of it's faked. I mean, I've seen a lot of products out there where I've scanned the QR code and what they say is inside isn't inside and we need regulation. I mean, that we, we absolutely, we built, we [00:25:00] built Datrium so that somebody could literally stand up in the Senate and go, this is how this should be done.

I'm not saying that's gonna happen, but I mean, we're trying to be a model for that. Yeah. Obviously we, we don't put big, you know, big boobs [00:25:15] on the packaging and we don't put kids' stuff infl. We don't make candy cans and bubble gum fla. I mean, our site, you have to buy something on our site. You actually have to have your age verified.

I mean, we're very careful right about how we do this, but there's a, there's a thing about us [00:25:30] take the right product for the purpose you're looking for, and then the question is, well, how much should I take? I mean, that's, so I, I, I need help with sleep. Great. How much should I take?

Rick: Right. And I wanna, I wanna go down there.

There's two things in there, by the way. I think if you [00:25:45] become, and the source of truth for how it should be done, there's elements of regulatory capture that could work in clearly your company's Yeah. Benefit going, going long range down there, particularly as the market grows. But one of the things that I'm [00:26:00] intrigued with, and obviously you have to get consumers potential, you know, patrons of, of your site to it, but is that you have this a dosing grid and an actual algorithm. You have a [00:26:15] device that will allows you to score like we do with medication the gummy so that you can dose it correctly. That's right. You, you cannot do that unless you have consistent product. In production.

Right, right. I mean [00:26:30] you, there has to be no variability in that, which is intriguing. How did you get to that point and Martin, again, I'm gonna get, this sounds very expensive. So when you position the product, how does it all, how does that come together? I mean, is that part of it as well? [00:26:45] I mean, I would would say this, this is, you know, we got a high end product.

'cause we're putting this kind of resource and expertise into it so that there's no mistakes.

Martin: That's right. I mean, we're meticulous about this. I mean, we literally, like I said, we were [00:27:00] building something for us. And so, you know we didn't, we weren't willing to take any chances, right? I mean, we did everything in the highest quality way, right?

We, whatever it was we said yes to, whatever. So literally, I mean, there really isn't another coming, [00:27:15] coming like it right now. But you know, again, what choice do you like? If you're going to create a product and say it's dream, you're gonna like, I mean the truth is it better work if it's not gonna work.

[00:27:30] What's the point of doing all this? I mean, how long is that? How long is that scam gonna last? Like, well, somebody bought it, didn't help 'em sleep there. I'm done. I mean, right. So now contrast that with like our experience. Like we've never had that happen. I mean, you know, like a hundred percent of the people that [00:27:45] took dream went.

Perfect. And that's just not an accident. That's two years of work. Now we, we really looked at this very carefully. 'cause when I was talking about my wife and I being in California a couple of years ago Mm-Hmm. You know, and I've done a podcast on this that people can find [00:28:00] on YouTube that says we've got too strong.

The reality is, according to the DEA the, the cannabis that they seized in 1995 when compared with the cannabis, they seized in 2020. Cannabis [00:28:15] today is 20 to 80 times stronger than it was in 1995.

Rick: Incredible.

Martin: I mean, think about those numbers 20 times. If, if I were 20 to 80 times stronger than I am now, I would have my own comic book series.

Right. [00:28:30] Right. I mean, 80 times stronger. I can go outside and pick up my car on top of my head. That's a crazy number. You

Rick: can think about any medication if it was 80 times strong, how if it's 80 times strong,

Martin: it requires a prescription now, whatever. I mean, you would never Right. So it, it has gotten too [00:28:45] strong.

And so if you are not a regular cannabis user and you just think, Hey, I'm, I'm, it's a weekend away with my old friends from college and we're gonna try somebody who's brought some cannabis, some marijuana, we're gonna smoke a joint, whatever. I wouldn't do it. I don't recommend it. [00:29:00] It's gonna be too strong.

You're not gonna feel good. I mean, it's, it's just. Ah, I mean, you can't, you have no resistance built up, right?

Rick: Yeah. And are, are you, Martin, are you seeing that and, and there I listen to a lot of podcasts. I'm, I'm just, [00:29:15] I, it amazes me that the number of folks, including podcast hosts and participants who say, oh, I, we, I do gummies.

I do, we hear that a lot. It's in the public vernacular for sure. Yeah. Is there a move. Now a move over [00:29:30] from traditional pot smoking to gummies are, are you seeing that and was that part of your intentional Yeah. You know, marketing plan?

Martin: Yeah. See, the reality is, you know, we talked in the beginning of this, we said, you know, they're making it legal.

Does that mean more people [00:29:45] are gonna do it?

Joe Woolworth: Right?

Martin: I mean, the reality is like I said, you know, you reach a certain point in your life where it's like, look, I'm not trying to get stoned here. I'm, you know, maybe I want something to relax. Maybe I want something to help me sleep. Maybe I want something to put me in a great mood, you know, mood and laughing, [00:30:00] but I'm not trying to, you know, knock myself out here.

Right. I mean, and cannabis has gotten too strong. Yeah. And also people don't wanna be smoking anymore. I mean, it's like, you know. Smoking is smoking. I'm not gonna, I'm not saying that I think [00:30:15] cannabis, smoking cannabis is like smoking cigarettes, but it's still smoking. It's still smoking still. You know, it's tar and all those things.

Right. And many

Rick: other effects too. We have to say that. I would say that clinically, you know, there's, there's lots of effects. That need to be considered by [00:30:30] anyone who, who is smoking anything particularly marijuana. There's no doubt about

Martin: that. Well, and a gummy, I mean, you take a gummy and it's gonna last maybe four or five hours.

Mm-Hmm. And you're not gonna have to smoke anything. And it's gonna give, if it gives you the, the [00:30:45] effect that you're looking for. Isn't that better than having to walk around smoking something? Yeah, no,

Rick: I'm, and I'm, I'm with you. So we established, you know let's just say the demand that's out there, and I am intrigued by this when I think about the, the [00:31:00] competitive advantage, we'll say that Deum brings to the table versus other gummies that are out there, one.

Is the fact that you're, you've put in a lot of research to develop the product that you have strict standards with respect to, [00:31:15] should we say quality control that's ongoing. You mentioned, I don't know of, of many companies that are probably doing double blind, blind studies and you've done that. No one.

Yeah. That's pretty impressive to me. We said probably that's an expensive endeavor. It's a private company. [00:31:30] Where do you see the company going? Where is it at right now? And, you know, we said earlier it's probably gonna be an $8 billion opportunity in

Martin: Oh, the industry 2030.

Rick: So give your thought, your playbook.

Martin: I think, [00:31:45] ultimately, I think Deum will get acquired by a bigger, you know, as. This isn't a mystery anymore, right? Mm-Hmm. We've heard all this about the federal government rescheduling or descheduling cannabis, because up until now it's been a [00:32:00] schedule one drug, which we've all probably heard the soundbite.

You know, it's on the same list with fentanyl and heroin. And that's just embarrassing for the government. I mean, you reach a certain point where you go, okay, wait, I don't know what your opinion is on marijuana, but it's not fentanyl or heroin, right? [00:32:15] Mm-Hmm. So that's changing. States are changing.

Everything is changing. And I think that Deum will first of all, be the first brand that enjoys real brand loyalty. Because right now in the marketplace, nobody buys the same gummies twice. [00:32:30] Mm-hmm. They, they might go and buy gummies and then they take 'em. They, they're like, and they don't, they took too much.

They don't like it. They took too little. They don't like it, right? But the ones in the middle, maybe they buy 'em, whatever they, but they go back next week. They don't care what brand of gummies they bought. Right [00:32:45] now, Datrium, we go out of our way to really create a product you can't get anywhere else and tell you exactly how much to take.

So it works. So you come back and now you don't want anything but that. That's why we say [00:33:00] Datrium only Dium. I mean, there's, if there's not another dream out there, so once it works for you, I think we're gonna see that kind of level of brand loyalty that really doesn't exist in the cannabis market. I mean, let's face it, people go to a dispensary, they buy cannabis, or they [00:33:15] buy vapes, or they buy gummies.

They come back three weeks later, they don't, they don't even know the brand they bought. I don't, you know, there's not a lot of loyalty there. And

Rick: this, this experience that you're, you're establishing with your customer base because you want them to go on [00:33:30] the website, you want them to. Use the dosing algorithm to see what works for them.

And then you provide a scoring mechanism tool so that they can Oh, yeah. Better. Right? That's that. No one does that.

Martin: No, no. Look, we, we [00:33:45] looked, we spent a year on dosing and the algorithm. There are a lot of factors that go in to how much should you take of this gummy. And then we'll get to when you're saying they're expensive, like it depends how you look at it.

And I'm not [00:34:00] saying that

Rick: by the way. I'm not saying that in a negative way. I mean, I think a price point is price. It's certainly

Martin: not the cheapest, but at the same time our gummies are significantly stronger. They're one inch gummies. Mm-Hmm. And they're divided into fours. Right. So anyway, we looked at the dosing thing [00:34:15] very carefully.

We talked to scientists that are working on Delta nine THC dosing guidelines, and then we. Looked at it in a holistic kind of way. It's, some of it is physiological, right? How big a person are you, right? Mm-Hmm. You're six four and you weigh 300 pounds. Well, that's different [00:34:30] than five two weighs 90 pounds.

That's kind of a body mass is kind of an obvious thing, right? But there are, there are other things that are not physiological. There are things that are psychological. There are things that are environmental lifestyle.

Joe Woolworth: Mm-Hmm.

Martin: Right. Age demographic sort of [00:34:45] thing. So we built. Those factors into a 14 question algorithm.

And you go on the site, you click find my dose, and you answer those 14 questions about you, just about you. And at the end of the putting, submitting [00:35:00] those questions in a few seconds you'll, the algorithm will tell you a certain color bar that you are, maybe you are orange. Right. And then on the back of every delian product, whether the box or the jar or whatever it is, you'll [00:35:15] find a color chart on the back.

And all you have to do is find the orange bar where it'll say to maybe take half a gummy. Right? So you know it, you know, if you were blue it would say, take three quarters of a gummy. Mm-Hmm. If you were purple, it might say, take a quarter of a gummy. [00:35:30] Right? But it tells you exactly based on your answers about you, what your optimal initial dose should be.

Trust the algorithm.

Joe Woolworth: Right.

Martin: I have friends that literally call and they go, I don't really have to do that, do I? I'm like, yeah, you really do. And and an [00:35:45] example is a friend of mine in Oregon who, who had just gotten his gummies and he called and, 'cause you know, we're older, we've been around like, do I really need to take the algorithm?

Come on, it's me. I'm cool. I know, I'm, I'm, yeah, whatever. I went, yeah, you really do. He's like, well, why? [00:36:00] I am like, well he goes, my wife and I were each, we're just each, we were gonna each take one. And I went, no, that's probably the worst strategy I've ever heard.

Rick: It's, it's, I see it's. Bad analogy, but I see this as a responsible approach.

You wouldn't wanna say, Hey, I, I'm starting [00:36:15] out with two shots in my mar vodka martini versus, you know, one crazy, right. Have

Martin: you ever taken too much of an edible, a th edible If people listening to this podcast, have you ever taken too much of a th c edible? It's not a good experience. Right. It's a [00:36:30] horrible thing.

'cause it probably lasts four or five hours. Mm-Hmm. I did it once and I went to bed right away. I went, I, I, I just gotta go to sleep. This is awful. Like that's a terrible thing. Terrible experience. The other terrible experience is you get those people that are familiar with cannabis, right? Mm-Hmm. They're familiar with smoking, cannabis, [00:36:45] whatever.

And then they don't take enough and then they don't feel anything and they go, ah, that stuff's not. And they go back to whatever they were doing. The other people go, oh no, that's not for me. That was too crazy. I don't wanna do that. So we realized, look, it's one thing to develop now here, here's the real, what [00:37:00] really happened?

I said, they, this couple, yes. You both have to take the algorithm. He turned up blue, which is in the the higher end of the scale and she came out purple. Now they were both going to each [00:37:15] take one gummy, right. Had they not used the algorithm, he would've taken half a gummy. Too little, not felt it and gone.

Yeah, they were. I didn't really feel that way in that, and she would've taken. Three quarters of a gummy too much [00:37:30] and probably not done it again. Probably gone. Oh honey, I don't really like that. I'm gonna have a glass of wine.

Rick: Yeah,

Martin: I'm not doing that. I just made me feel uncomfortable. Two, two

Rick: very different experiences.

Lack of that consistency and the, the dangers of the variability. So look, I, look what happened.

Martin: They [00:37:45] used the algorithm, they got the right dose right now, they love it. It's as simple as that. Then we've said, how do you, how do you get three quarters of a gummy. How do, what do you, how are you gonna do this?

Exactly. You're gonna get a knife and you're gonna try to make a [00:38:00] quarter. I mean, you know, so we literally invented the world's first and only gummy cutter. Now you've been in healthcare Mm-Hmm. You know, pill cutters. Yeah. There's lots of this. This is the bill cutters, this is

Rick: the scoring mechanism that we alluded to earlier, right?

Yeah.

Martin: Yeah. [00:38:15] There's, there are lots of pill cutters out there. There are no gummy cutters. Right. We were actually able to get, to get patent protection on the design and we're, wait. We're still working on the utility patent, but you know, it is, it is a patented gummy cutter. [00:38:30] It is not just a simple piece of plastic.

We hired an industrial designer. We had it manufactured in China, but we designed it here. And the plastic, this, the type of plastic used and the sharpness of it, make it just. Effortless to, to cut a gummy into [00:38:45] quarters. So if it says, well, you should take three quarters of a gummy. You don't have to guess at it, you're gonna get the exact dose, right?

Yeah. And if you wanna know how the whole industry, I mean, we traveled around the country and I went to hundreds of stores over [00:39:00] a couple years, and this is how the whole industry does it. You, you prove, you prove this to yourself tomorrow. You just walk in anywhere. Well, how much should I take? And they go, well, everybody's different.

Well, thank God you told me that. I thought everybody was gonna be the [00:39:15] same. No. Okay, so everybody's different. So just take a little bit and then wait, like, you know, I don't know, 45 minutes or something. And if you're not feeling it, then take a little more and then I guess you wait, you know a little and see if you're feeling it, and then you take a little more.

I mean, beside the fact, that's like the worst [00:39:30] advice I've ever heard. Mm-Hmm. Because here's what it, first of all, it leads to people taking too much because Right. You know, you take, you take half and then you go, has it been 45 minutes? It feels like 45 minutes. I feel. Okay, how about you? I'm fine too. Oh, let's take another one.

And now you, now you [00:39:45] may have a problem. Right, right. So it's just a bad, or on the other side of the coin, think about that like. I took some, I waited 45 minutes, I took it. Now it's been an hour and a half. I can't remember why I took one. I mean, I, now I'm onto something else. I'm not paying attention anymore.

So [00:40:00] it's just silly advice. It's, they should just say, when somebody says, well, how much did I take? They should go, I have no idea.

Rick: Yeah.

Martin: I, I don't know. No.

Rick: Look, again, I, I think that when I look at, not the pharmaceutical industry, but when I look at [00:40:15] recreational, let's just say alcohol, what's happened in the gummy industry so far?

The lack of regulation. You really are on the cutting edge here, establishing the rules of the game, for lack of a better way to [00:40:30] put it. I'm really intrigued by this and, and let me step back a little bit and, and, and just kind of, I. Aggregated together and look at the opportunity. So you knew there was incredible demand.

You have a differentiated product that's gonna talk to a lot of folks, individual [00:40:45] needs, right? Everything from sleep to energetics, et cetera. Is, is the, I know the cutter that you use, the scoring tool is proprietary. Is the, is the, are the Blends proprietary model you together? Well, you

Martin: can't, yeah. I mean, you, you can't, [00:41:00] you know, anybody can reverse engineer anyway.

Right? Right. So, I hope they do. I mean, I like, I hope that other gummy companies get better. A lot of these things are, I don't know. They're a little bit, I'm not sure [00:41:15] they'll be around, you know? Yeah. Like, if all you're trying to do is sell Delta eight in a gummy, in a bag, I don't, I I don't, I don't know that those will be around them much longer.

Right, right. I think there are some big cannabis companies, some big, legitimate, you know cannabis companies and pharmaceutical companies that. [00:41:30] Are going to be looking at a company like De and because of the, the brand loyalty aspect that people, it's people are rebuying it all the time. I mean, think about this for a minute.

When you go to our site, right, it says, are you 21 or over? And you click yes, right? And then, you know, [00:41:45] we, there's, there's there no regulation that says we have to do this. But we decided that before somebody could purchase something, we would have to. Pay for and have a third party age verification service.

So when you go to buy something on the site, it, it, you know it's [00:42:00] gonna go well. You, you, you're gonna have to answer these questions. It's gonna up, you may have to upload a driver's license if they can't verify you on the internet. Another way they're gonna say, you have to. Now people in the industry have called me and went, what are you out of your mind?

I mean, don't do that. That just makes it. You know, harder [00:42:15] to, for people to purchase. Right. And so we're, we're adding a little message to the site right there where it's gonna say, look, I know I'd like to check out as a guest too. But we can't risk this getting in the hands of kids and we're, if you don't support that, [00:42:30] then shop somewhere else.

Now, did anyone have to tell us to do, like, does anyone think that asking someone if they're over 21 and clicking a button is age verification of anything? Yeah. That's ridiculous. Yeah, and that's not what bartenders do. Hey, you [00:42:45] over 21? Yes. Then have a martini. By all means. What? I mean, I don't know. Do we need to be, you know, if you're a responsible company, do you need to be regulated to be told that?

Is that a mystery to anybody and that it's ridiculous?

Rick: I see this as a competitor advantage for [00:43:00] derim across the board. There is no doubt about it. If folks are telling you the opposite, that it is keeping customers away. I actually think that that level of. Integrity. It goes, goes a long way. I wanted to ask you [00:43:15] one question.

There seems to me, and this is just an observation, that there's a move away from alcohol consumption, particularly with. Folks. Yeah. But marijuana and gummies fall into a different category. I think it's, it's really the, the, [00:43:30] the bad effects, the physiologic effects, the negative long-term effects of alcohol that's probably influencing a lot of that for that age cohort.

What are your thoughts on that and how does that relate back to what you did and are doing with Delt

Martin: Tree? Well, and we haven't started, I [00:43:45] mean, we planned, we are planning to do some. Drinkables. Mm-Hmm. Right. To take our algorithm and our formula. I mean, there are companies out there that are making THC based drinks.

Joe Woolworth: Mm-Hmm.

Martin: In fact, Maryland now, I guess the first state with [00:44:00] lounges. So, you know, but there, there, there are several out there, and I've been in, you know, people have introduced me to them and I ask the same thing. I, I said, well, how much, how do you know? Do you wanna try it? And I'm like. Oh, how much of, I mean, how much is, how [00:44:15] much is in there and what am I trying?

Exactly. I mean, he's like, well, there's 50 milligrams. I'm like, in the bottle or in the shot or in the, I mean, what? How much are you suggesting? I. Take. Right. Well try. Why don't you just try half a [00:44:30] shot then? Mm-Hmm. It's like, wait, do you have any idea how much I should take? Same issue, right? Yeah. Same issue every time.

And I said no. 'cause I don't know how, I mean, I, no, that's a ridiculous thing. Yeah. Okay. I'm like we say we're gummies for grownups at Deum. I'm a [00:44:45] grownup. I'm not, you know, I'm not taking some mystery cocktail. I don't know what's in it. That sounds crazy to me. So when, when we attack the drinkable side of things, it'll be exactly like the gummies.

We will have, you know, our, our [00:45:00] drinkable will come with a glass. The glass will have color coded bars on it. It'll go, if you're orange, fill it up to here. If you are purple to there. I mean, if we can't do that, if we can't tell you exactly how much to take for a targeted effect, we won't offer it. So. [00:45:15] You know, because that's the mad that's, without that, it's a crapshoot.

Rick: Okay. So you gave us a little insight on where you're going, perhaps with the, with the drinkable side drinkables. But tell us right now, where can folks find datrium? Where do they [00:45:30] go? The website and, you know, again, I was amazed when I saw the, the depth and breadth of product. And I, I don't wanna say it, it is a, it's certainly not a, from a consumer.

Perspective, something [00:45:45] I've seen before in the wellness space. It is very consumer centric when it comes to, I want this for this, it crosswalks nicely. Where can folks find you? You know, what, what stores are you at? Yeah. What states,

Martin: I mean, trem.com obviously is the [00:46:00] website that anybody can go to anytime.

We have a big, you know, we are neighborhood pharmacies and sort of hemp dispensaries or cannabis dispensaries. We're very careful about the retailers that we work with. Things like age, you [00:46:15] know, like we're not in one of these vape stores with 8,000 products and nobody knows what anything is. Like, we're not, it's just too much risk.

Our product needs needs a, a consultative approach, right? Mm-Hmm. I mean, it's not, people aren't just gonna walk in and [00:46:30] say, yeah, I mean three of those and I'm leaving, and whatever. We need people to use the algorithm. We need people. If they're not, if you're not gonna tell 'em about the algorithm and give them the cutter, the cutter is free, by the way, with our MM-Hmm.

If you're not gonna do that, then the chances are they're gonna screw it up is, you know, I mean, think about it. What are the [00:46:45] odds if somebody ends you a gummy and you have no other guidelines? Chances are you're either gonna take too much or too little. 'cause taking the exact right amount would be sort of luck.

Joe Woolworth: Mm-Hmm.

Martin: You know, so, and then once you take the wrong amount, that's just, that's not a good thing to do. [00:47:00] So, short answer, go to the website. The website, and then we're gonna be in neighborhood pharmacies around, we'll be in, as of right now, I think there's two states Idaho and Nebraska, where we, you know, can't ship to or something.

I really imagine that. [00:47:15] Our gummies are legal in 50 states. That's just a matter of federal law

Joe Woolworth: right

Martin: now, if, if an individual state freaks out and says, oh no, we can't have something here. I, you know, we keep track of that, we monitor it, we have on our site we pay attention. But I [00:47:30] think very soon, I mean, let's face it, some of it is age mm-Hmm.

Right. Look, I mean, we're Mm-hmm. 63 years old, right? I mean, that's not that old anymore. I would consider that very young. And you see what I mean? Mm-Hmm. Well, you know, think about how different things are. My [00:47:45] grandmother, I remember in 1970, my grandmother turned 70 in 1970. She passed away when she was 95.

When she passed away, when she was 70. She didn't look a day over 95 mm-Hmm. I mean, she looked like when she died at 95, she looked the same as she did when she was 70. [00:48:00] She looked a hundred years old for the whole last 30 years of her life right now. 70 is nothing that's, there's people climbing Mount Everest.

I'm playing pickleball dealers too. 70 is nothing. Well, if you go back, I mean anybody 70 today grew up with [00:48:15] cannabis around, I mean. I hate to tell, tell everyone, like high schools had plenty of cannabis in the seventies, sixties. It was everywhere.

Rick: No, you're, and I think you're meeting the market nicely. So listen, clo clo, really closing thoughts.

Martin, I'm, I'm really interested [00:48:30] on, topics that I think our, our audience always has an ear. For, and that is what's, what's novel, what's new and exciting, particularly in the health and wellness space this fits. But as an entrepreneur, as [00:48:45] someone who has a background in healthcare, you, a health sector consultant have done a lot of things obviously in your previous life and in another career.

What is your advice for the entrepreneurs and your experience with trem, which I would say there's a lot of barriers to [00:49:00] entry here that hasn't dissuaded you. No. Close it up for us. Tell us. I, it was,

Martin: what we did here was a, or it was a passionate thing. You know, we, when we started, my partner and I started on this, we, we were.

Looking at [00:49:15] medical, the medical marijuana space. My first wife and I had, had fought breast cancer for a number of years and I was very, so I've been very familiar with chemotherapy. You know, not being able to eat and that whole thing, [00:49:30] you know, that's why nobody really beats me in a debate about medical marijuana.

I'm like, I'm, I'm the guy. You don't want to debate. Mm-Hmm. If you're gonna have a debate on this topic, not with me, because there's no question about it. Right. They prescribe cancer patients an unbelievable amount of [00:49:45] drugs. Right. So to think, oh no, not THC, not cannabis for why they'll give 'em fentanyl.

What are you talking about? Mm-Hmm. I mean, so it's, you know, we started out as, as really a passionate thing. We wanted to build [00:50:00] them for us as we learned more and, you know, did more, we were like, wow, we, let's do this. You know, let's make this better. And the whole thing was once we realized that we really could get very specific with targeting.

I [00:50:15] mean, one of our customers we have is a, happens to be a retired physician. He just had a hip replacement. We saw him the other day and he took Soothe our Soothe blend for pain. I mean, there's a lot more. You were asking me how do we educate people? You know, there's a lot of curiosity [00:50:30] about this. Mm-Hmm.

Right? I mean, you come back to it. The fastest growing audience for cannabis is over 65 mm-Hmm. Because we grew up with it and then they come back to it. Well, this is a way to, you can use cannabis for different purposes, safely [00:50:45] know how much to take, know what effect you're expecting. I mean, otherwise, how do you know if it works, if you don't know why you bought it?

Right. I mean, and we do have a blend called soaring. And Soaring is intended to be intoxicating.

Joe Woolworth: Mm-Hmm.

Martin: And you know, we use [00:51:00] the best ingredients in that, and it is fun if you take the right amount. It will be fun if you take too much. It won't. I mean, it's the same old thing, but we, we also have new things coming out.

We have two travel solutions coming out that are, you know, a [00:51:15] one's called the Overnighter and the other's called the Extended Stay. And it's a way to take gummies on your vacation with the cutter or without, that doesn't leak, you know, in your purse or in your pocket. I mean, the drinkables will be coming.

We have Pinnacle Blends coming out that are, we [00:51:30] only did them because. We could, we wanted to show off to the cannabis like they're legal and they're the strongest gummies on the planet. You know, there are a lot of ways to blend cannabinoids that people haven't looked at yet. There's a lot of research out there now.

It's coming out incredible science journals. [00:51:45] It's coming soon to a theater near you. It's good, you know it. So we try to tell people, look, try it having trouble sleeping. Try dream. You want to try something intoxicated? Try soaring. We give away samples all the time and we have, you know, these sample things, we just constantly are giving 'em away.[00:52:00]

And the response has been amazing.

Rick: I'm waiting to see a celebrity blend come out soon because I think it's just a matter of time. Just like everyone's getting on the bandwagon for their own customized tequilas that. Right. When they [00:52:15] get it, they'll be, they'll be going down, down this road. That's right.

Martin, this has been a fascinating conversation. I think again, we're always looking at trends and innovations. You are way ahead of the game on what's happening. Obviously your ideas of how to position in the [00:52:30] market, I. What you've done, which really impresses me on not only the educational side, but the quality, safety and the r and d side.

I applaud you again for that because there's not enough of that. Yeah. When, when, when there's no need [00:52:45] to do it for regulatory component and also the age verification. I mean that means a lot. So great to have you on my friend. Thank you. And we'll see you again. Great to be here. Best of best of luck with Dum.

Martin: Thanks. [00:53:00] [00:53:15]